Hart Vs Perfect was a great match (I'm a big fan of both guys) but I don't really see the sense in comparison? They are from different eras and the Streak match was probably a good 10 minutes longer with a near 7ft wrestler that's 45 years old.
Also, I'm not saying those streak matches are my favorite or Michael's best if that's what you are assuming? I just think they are great matches.
Good points. I was mainly referring to how I felt The Streak skewed more towards formulaic where it was a series of guffaws of how many times could each guy possibly eat a false finish before Undertaker won with his 3rd or 4th tombstone? I mean why the hell would HBK waste energy trying to win with the tombstone? Is that really his specialty; dropping a much larger man on his head?
Take Savage/Flair at WM VIII also. How great was it to have that epic match end on something as random and out of the blue as Savage decking Flair with a right hand then rolling him up instead of either the flying elbow or that bullshit small package reversal of the Figure Four I think Flair lost like half of his matches to?
Rock can hate his guts, others do too. Still doesn't take away from the fact he's a fantastic wrestler... and that's basically from the mouth of every wrestler including those you listed and your beloved Bret Hart. Where he ranks is a matter of opinion.
Yeah, HBK's a top three to five worker of all-time. Overall package I don't rate him near the top though. Too much of a weenie as a face though and there's just certain guys I could buy the likes of Hart and Savage going over because they were the best in the world that I couldn't HBK.
As for Hitman....
Well, you see, that’s the thing…..
You’ll get no argument from me on Bret being a self-aggrandizing knob. If anybody wants to point out how petulant he himself could be. After reading Hitman: My Real Life In The Cartoon World Of Pro Wrestling, I have to believe Bret has a special edition of his memoirs with a mouth on it like the cover of the Necronomicon that actually blows him every night before he goes to bed.
That’s what the Hogan Summerslam ’92 comment was about earlier…….only a guy so full of his own shit as Bret (who had been around as long as Bret; which made it worse) would ever fall for Hogan assuring he was willing to do a clean submission job in the middle of the ring.
For crying out loud in Hogan’s most famous clean job (WM VI) at his peak, he still got a visual pinfall over Warrior during a ref bump and then if you watch closely it appears he kicks out right at “3” after the big splash.
He also doesn’t come off so well in his public fued with Ric Flair; although his criticisms about Flair wrestling the same match are hardly original.
But other the Montreal Screwjob, I’ve never heard of him vetoing anything.
Shit, Bob Backlund hadn’t even competed on the national scene for ten friggin’ years and Bret dropped the belt to him; no fuss, no muss.
In a way, it’s stupendous that Hogan and HBK would finally go on to meet in a match that ended up like that Summerslam debacle. They should’ve fought for the Fucking With Bret’s Head Memorial Cup. And Vince should’ve blown the winner.
Since they were two of the best at screwing with Bret’s head and just being two of the worst (that is to say best) conniving backstage politicians.
Hell, HBK is probably the all-time politician; considering he didn’t sate Vince’s big man fetish and he was never a bona fide draw. Then again, there’s the possibility that HBK was doing some kind of sordid backstage manwhoring for Vince……which goes beyond politicking.
Hart's never been my absolute favorite either. Although he had to be my favorite WWF guy pre-Attitude Era.
When I was a little ignorant kid, I liked Warrior and Sting as most did. I liked the Steiners as a tag team but the difference is they still hold up. To this day there is nothing more awesome than the way they suplexed fools to hell and back. A team like the stupid Dudleyz and their lame ass "get the tables!" can kiss my ass. The Road Warriors were great too (even though they were tag team Goldbergs basically) but I only really caught them in the WWF.
Then Stone Cold and yes, even that brilliant piece of marketing Goldberg during the boom period.
In the new millennium; Brock. He's like everything Sid was as far as being a monster that looks like he was born to be a pro wrestler. But unlike that lunkhead Sid, he can actually go in the ring.
By the way, make no mistake except for Bryan's rise to the top last year, I haven't been half in invested in anything else as I was "The Streak." Even if I feel they ended up skewing too close to being formulaic than past great matches as the thing dragged on. Although I do believe it only took one tombstone to put down Punk at the WM before last.
I know better about what exactly? And I'm a mongoloid for liking his Streak matches?
"I’ll be the first to say that I thought Taker vs. Shawn was the best match at WrestleMania, maybe one of the best matches I’ve seen in years. To a certain degree, I was proud of both of them. I never take away the fact that Shawn was a great wrestler and he did a lot of great stuff.” - Bret Hart
Guess Bret is a Mong as well .
That was strictly in jest, mate. But I guess that HBK wasn't better overall than Savage or Hart; guys who worked effectively as faces or heels and who were just as good of workers as Michaels. Especially Savage who was even a larger-than-life personality like Hogan; except his routine wasn't as lame as the big boot-bodyslam-legdrop horseshit in the ring. He was one of the all-time great workers and the flying elbow might be the all-time greatest finisher because unlike something like the Stunner, Diamond Cutter or RKO; it was Savage's delivery that made the move great. Whereas those other three are great flash finishers but any guy could've been gifted them.
Also I was being smart aleck more than anything about Sweet Chin Music. It takes a hell of a worker to get the damn Superkick as a dynamic finisher over the way Michaels did. The stamping is still kind of stupid but that's just one of those pesky "wrestling things" you have to suspend your disbelief on.
Of course, I'm the real mong because like you say you're not even arguing those things. I just like running my mouth I guess.
And I don't know why you keep making false assumptions about people's age? Seems like a cheap way to debase someone's argument and is more a reflection on your maturity. I think Se7en is the only 90s child in this thread, not that it matters.
I'm still unsure what your argument is? That HBK is an asshole? (No one disagrees) That he's a bad wrestler? Or what?
I do like that you are spicing up the boards though and I love talking wrestling.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was actually only making the assumption about Blakelock and referring to Se7en since they were most oblivious to Big Van Vader as a quality monster heel before Vince wasted him and most passionate about their HBK support.
That he was unprofessional and not near the top (3-5 anyways) of all-time great characters. But at this point, I'm the one just driving a gimmick into the ground, now aren't I? Just funning is all I'm here to do.
Thanks for that. I appreciate it. Glad I could be of some use around here.
There was a time when TNA was consistently putting on better shows than WWE. It wasn't a very long time, but it was definitely there.
Ah. Gotcha. I thought you meant as an actual competitor.
I'll make a confession. I'm not cool. I never gave much of a rat's ass about guys like Samoa Joe and AJ. If Joe really was offered Umaga, he had to have some major screws loose to not take the gig. To me, they just look like a couple of guys who are only really big deals in Salvation Army gymnasiums and flea markets; not main eventers in legitimate venues like arenas and stadiums.
Sure, TNA dragged their feet too much on Joe by keeping the belt on rinky dink Jarrett. But there's not one casual or crossover (from WWE that is) fan in the world who could be so won over by Joe's in the ring prowess that it would stop them from asking that natural question; "who is this fat tubby tub of fuck and why should I care?" when seeing he was TNA's Champ.
Micheals was an asshole. Micheals' gimmick was kind of gay. Micheals was one of the greatest workers of all time, and is looked upon as the GOAT by a lot of his peers.
All of this. Except for the hands down greatest by his peers part. It all depends on what your source is. Iím not doubting it; just that if were talking about a bunch of testimonials on WWE produced DVDís; then yeah those puff pieces are always either insincere or coerced ("as in we pay you, fucko! Now sit down and kiss our golden boy's ass") testimonials by the wrestlers when it comes to the WWE cramming their own version of historyís chosen ones down peopleís throats.
Certainly his peers hold him in high esteem; just not as highly as WWE puff pieces would have everybody believe.
Depends on how you look at it. Sting had the benefit of being the guy to terrorize the NWO. You could've put Hugh Morris in that spot, and he'd have been over as shit too.
I really don't put too much stock into theatrics though(or what WCW fans liked). Sting's best known for standing in the rafters and pointing a bat a people. Shawn Micheals is best known for having some of the greatest matches of all time. Shawn Micheals is Mr. Wrestlemania. Sting is that guy who dressed as the crow.
Now, now, no need to go to Sillytown. That’s like saying "Simply Irresistible" Jeff Jarrett (his cookie cutter gimmick early on in Memphis and yes, the damn Robert Palmer song was his entrance music)was so interchangeable as some random pretty boy with Michaels that if Vince decided to give him HBK’s push instead during the mid-nineties he would’ve been remembered as the Showstopper and Mr. Wrestlemania . I’ll defer to Se7en on how poor of a pretty boy Jarrett would’ve made for.
Or that those goofy hicks Ricky Morton or Bobby Eaton were other aces of their respective big time eighties tag teams that could’ve been just as big as Bret and Shawn if only they ever got that WWF marketing machine behind them as serious singles stars.
Or that Bastion Booger would've made just as good of a Mankind and Dude Love as Mick Foley as long as he was deranged enough of a scumbag to fling himself off really high shit. And then dust himself off and do it again. And then get hit thirty or forty times in a row with a chair the next night, week or month.
I’m glad you brought up Hugh Morrus though. The biggest kick I got out of the Tough Enough series was seeing him and fake-o tough guy Taz ride the trainees’ asses like they had ever been hot stuff; especially the shitty Laughing Man. I guess Mongo McMichael wasn’t available to train those brats.
The other thing is sadly apparently Vince agrees with your view of "any old WCW twats will do" as besides Booker T, that’s basically how poorly represented WCW ended up being in the Invasion.
What I'm really trying to say is that if we're talking fans who were exclusively devoted to one or the other (WWF or WCW; I think the majority of people who were just fans who watched both companies) is that it cuts both ways as far as Shawn being a prancing dandy who would've been shit on by WCW diehards as the centerpiece of the NWO.
Of course, I realize the hole in such a hypothetical and how it's like "let's say the Earth was actually flat." Because there's no way everybody's favorite red and yellow jerkoff would've ever let the NWO go on too long before he steamrolled it the same way he did the lame ass Dungeon Of Doom. That's the only way the NWO was allowed to breath.....they sold Hogan a piece of it. Anybody else is the 3rd man opposing goody two shoes Hogan and he shits all over the NWO like he did everything else.
That's the other part of it. The same way Sting might have gotten marginalized for not being a homegrown WCW talent by Vince and his lackies, HBK probably would've ended up demoted to the Cruiserweight division sooner than later. Just look how badly they whiffed on Hart and that was fresh off the controversy that was the Montreal Screwjob.
Finally, HBK isn't Mr. WrestleMania for me. On longevity, he's got everybody else; but I'd go Savage as far as overall moments; III, IV, V,VII&VIII. Then you'd have to weigh in Hogan & 'Taker's 'Mania careers.
I agree with this unfortunately.....HBK's gimmick up until DX was worse than Val Venus's
Yeah, I know how people must’ve felt about how corny surfer Sting was because whenever I’d see those horrible mid-nineties montages hyping male exotic dancer HBK "chasing down his boyhood dream" or even worse returning from "losing his smile" that was the most saccharine vomit-inducing crap I’d ever seen. The song was used was called "Tell Me A Lie" if anybody remembers these horrifying things.
EDIT: Here she blows....
I'll tell you a lie, alright; HBK likes poontang.
And that was before even knowing the real story behind why Owen’s enziguri kick knocked him so loopy that he needed to take a little sabbatical. Hint: he actually hit on some marine's girlfriend and got the bejeezus kicked out of him.
After reading Hitman: My Real Life In The Cartoon World Of Pro Wrestling, I have to believe Bret has a special edition of his memoirs with a mouth on it like the cover of the Necronomicon that actually blows him every night before he goes to bed.
I used to love Hart but he annoys me with his grumpy comments and self adulation. However given how his career turned out in WCW and the life changing injury he sustained it's admirable how he conducts himself for the most part.
I've actually heard people throw criticism at Hart for wrestling the same match in terms of moves of death. I don't agree with it but it just shows how easily that criticism is thrown around.