Interviews
[Interview] Unlocking New Potential In ‘Insidious: The Last Key’ with Lin Shaye
Anyone who is proud to call his or herself has undoubtedly heard of Lin Shaye – she’s one of our queens. My earliest memory of her is as Nancy’s school teacher in Wes Craven’s A Nightmare on Elm Street, during what is arguably the most haunting scene in the film. She also pops up in Critters, Critters 2, Amityville: A New Generation, Alone in the Dark, New Nightmare, and even the 1987 sci-fi thriller The Running Man. To say she knows the genre well would be putting it lightly, which is exactly why it’s so exciting to see her shift into the star of James Wan’s Insidious franchise as demonologist Elise Rainier, a place she has more than earned, and a role she adorns with endearment.
I was lucky enough to sit down and chat with Lin Shaye about the latest installment in the beloved series, Insidious: The Last Key, and she was a true joy. In the interview, we discuss how she became the face of the franchise, becoming BFFs with writer Leigh Whannell, and her fondest memory of Wes Craven.
Bloody Disgusting: One thing I think is interesting about this film is how at the beginning we’re lead to believe that Elise’s father is a monster, but over the course of the film we learn that he’s being controlled by this other force. Was there ever a monster in your life that you thought was evil in the beginning, but then came to realize was actually okay?
Lin Shaye: That’s a very good question. Sometimes it’s the other way around, (laughs) I would say I’ve had more experiences with that, with people who you think are okay and then have turned on you or you find treat other people in way that you don’t expect, that um…if there’s some signal that somebody’s a monster, gratefully my family, I have a fabulous family, there was no malevolence anywhere, I mean I’m really grateful, and more and more I realize how unusual that can be, that people have very odd families and there’s a lot of secrets that people don’t discuss. I’m wondering if this movie might unearth stuff for people who don’t talk about what’s happened to them as children. It’s a very powerful subject and I think as you grow older, people tend to not discuss that kind of thing, or even think about it, you tend to bury it so I did not, like I said, I was very grateful my family was very loving. You know, there was bad stuff that happened or as a kid you think it’s bad stuff, you’re like ‘Well why’d you make me do that?’ you know? (laughs) and it’s usually because you needed to do it or you’re supposed to do it, that’s why. But it was always filled with love and appreciation for family and for each other but I have had people who I’ve kind of trusted or liked and not personally been betrayed so much, I have pretty good instincts I guess. I steer away from bad people and I think just on instinct, I always have on some level. And some people are attracted to bad people, and I don’t know what that is to be honest, but we’re all made of different cellular makeup and there’s some need people have to kind of punish themselves on some level. I have hurt myself probably emotionally at times, out of just personal pain, but I don’t consciously try to harm myself, so I steer away from people who are harmful.
BD: That’s good. And although you’ve always been a well-known actor and a well-regarded actor, but especially for like horror nerds like me who just soak up every horror movie they can.
Lin Shaye: There’s nothing nerdy about you in any direction whatsoever, I might add. Put that on there!
BD: Well thank you. But these Insidious films have really kind of launched you to superstardom, and really made you a household name, especially for some of these young up-and-comers. What kind of an impact have these movies had, in your opinion, on your career?
Lin Shaye: Incredible. And unexpected, it leaves me really bewildered. I never really thought about being an actress, there was just something about me as a kid even, I spent a lot of time alone, and I would make up stories, I’d tell them out loud to my dolls, I mean literally when I was a little girl. I used to take all of the clothes out of my closet and I’d put on plays in my room by myself with my dolls and my bears, and so I’ve always kind of been a storyteller of some kind, but it wasn’t until I finished college, I was an art history major at the University of Michigan, I got my first job at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York at the Registrar’s Office in the basement, filing, and I remember thinking, because in school I was never a theater major or anything, but I was always in plays, I was always in the theater lab thing or reading the thing, because that was kind of what my interest was. I did like Art History but it was also looking at pictures in a classroom for an hour and a half instead of reading, so I really liked that! It was looking at slides of beautiful paintings. Um, and I remember I started thinking, ‘When am I gonna get to be in a play!?’ Literally had this sort of a weird little brainstorm, I thought, there’s a profession which you could pursue which would allow that to happen and get paid for it maybe! So I applied to graduate school in theater and I applied to Colombia, NYU and Brandice, I did not get into Brandice, I got into NYU and Columbia and I chose Columbia. So I never was like, ‘Oh, I’m going go to Hollywood and I’m going be an actor and I’m going to be in movies’, that never was my goal, so the fact that this has happened, it just is a real lesson in pursuing what you love, and you never know what’s around the corner – in terms of success. Because if you don’t pursue success, but you pursue the thing, that will lead you to success. I think people overstep, they forget the part about doing the work that will lead to the success. You don’t just get successful. It’s a very slow, I think, I mean I’m sure some people do, but for me it was very step-by-step, doing something I was passionate about and I got better at as I went. You know I studied, I went to the Actors’ Studio, I studied Lees Habsburg and Uda Haagen and Stella Adler, I’m a studied actress. I didn’t just say ‘Oh let’s do this’. I really worked hard, so people say, ‘Well, you deserve it’, well I don’t know if I deserve it, but I know I’m enjoying every second of this part of my life. It’s the best part of my life, right now, for real. I’ve never had so much fun.
BD: I love the fact that you’ve become the star of the franchise. I mean, I love these movies, but you look at the Mad Max series and it’s Mel Gibson as the star, and the Evil Dead franchise has Ash, it’s always this guy coming in to save the day –
Lin Shaye: And they’re young too.
BD: (Laughs)
Lin Shaye: I am! You know I’m an older woman, although I don’t act like it, I don’t even know what that means. Sometimes I feel genderless and ageless, because it’s not about that, it’s about people, it’s about dynamics of relationships, it’s about ethics, it’s about being a good storyteller in regard to supporting the whole film. In the film, you can’t just do what you want to do as the character, you’ve got to support the whole story and what the story is that you’re telling, so I really, the fact that I am older and I’m not that cute on camera (Laughs) I mean I am, but I don’t think about that either! I really don’t! I think the first time I looked at it I thought ‘Oh my god look at all those lines I never knew I had’ but it is what it is and I’m grateful to have my energy and my good health, and sometimes I think that’s all it’s about, for all of us, whether you’re young or you’re old, whether you’re male or you’re female, animal, vegetable, mineral, but to do something you love, to have good energy and good health, and you will be a success if you keep doing what you love.
BD: Yeah, and I think it’s super cool that you are the main star of this film.
Lin Shaye: Me too! I mean I still, I swear to you, I haven’t totally processed it but I know I’m enjoying everything and people have been so nice and supportive, and that’s a real treat.
PR: You have time for one more question after this.
Lin Shaye: She’s wonderful! We should let her talk forever.
BD: I love that you and Leigh Whannell have become this like power couple, at least business-wise, you two have become this really awesome pair to see onscreen and I’m wondering what he’s like professionally and what’s your favorite thing about working with him?
Lin Shaye: Leigh is amazing, really amazing. His brain never shuts down ever, it never quiets down hardly, he’s just always thinking, he’s got a phenomenal sense of detail in the way he lives his life and the way he creates his writing, I think is extraordinarily detailed, I love him as a friend, we’re like Mutt and Jeff together, we’re like this funny duo, of course he and Angus Sampson are really the funny couple in the movie, and they have a relationship that’s gone on for a long time, and they’re just repoirte, it’s just (snaps fingers) constant, they just keep one-upping each other. They have their own show, whether they like or not, whenever they’re going they just don’t stop. Leigh and I have a touch of that, and Leigh actually confessed, he loves to make people laugh. And so do I. So there’s some element to that in our relationship too, we’re always making each other laugh and I trust his judgment implicitly. He’s a very moral guy, loves what he does, loves his family, the people around him, is as genuine as the day is long, there’s not a false move in his body. He’s a real seer, I looked in his eyes the other day and I’ve never even told him this, his pupils are bigger than most people. Because I thought there’s something different about his eyes and I was trying to see what it is, and he’s got his big eyes, they’re a beautiful kind of gray-blue, but the pupil is bigger which means it lets in more light, and I wonder, I mean who knows, he doesn’t know he’s had it all his life, but I wonder, I mean I have tiny little dots in my eyes, maybe I don’t let in enough light, but I let Leigh’s light up my life. Or we light up each others’ lives! I guess you might say! That’s funny.
BD: I know I’m out of time but I just wanted to say how much I miss Wes Craven, and I’m sure you do too, and I was just wondering, is there a particular memory from working with him that you hold dear to your heart?
Lin Shaye: He was like a cherub, he was like an angel, and he looked like an angel, too. He was always rosy, he was quiet in demeanor, also a real seer and a real listener, very soft spoken and uh (laughs) I actually had one experience, I was auditioning for The Twilight Zone, I did an episode of Twilight Zone with him, and the casting director, I won’t say what his name was, but I did the scene and it was quite emotional, and it actually is on camera, too, when you see what we did, and the casting director, I won’t tell you his name, but he looked at me and he says, ‘Can you do it without being so cry-y?’ and I gave him the finger. (Laughs) It was just a reaction, believe me, if I thought about it I wouldn’t have done it, but I just remember Wes, because Wes was there, and Wes gave me the thumbs up. (Laughs) So I love Wes Craven.
BD: The Last Key feels very Nightmare on Elm Street to me, which is cool.
Lin Shaye: I think it’s a terrific story, I always go back to story and I’m really proud of it and proud to be in it.
Insidious: The Last Key is now in theaters everywhere.
Interviews
Paul Tremblay on Fighting AI with Horror in New Novel ‘Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep’
Paul Tremblay didn’t start his writing career believing he’d be battling machines over the sanctity of his job, but like so many writers of his generation, the battle found him. In the years since Large Language Models (LLMs) and neural networks started gaining traction as an advertised shortcut to creativity, Tremblay has been active in lawsuits to prevent the use of his works in training AI models, and he’s found that, with each new project, he has to consider the possibility that some LLM, somewhere, is going to latch on to what he’s creating.
“Now I feel like I’m thinking about, ‘Man, how am I going to write things that would be really hard or impossible for an AI to replicate?’,” Tremblay told me, speaking by Zoom from his home in Massachusetts. “Maybe some of that is ego. I’m sure every writer thinks, ‘Oh, an AI could never write what I write.’ Yes, I’d be lying if I said that wasn’t part of the thought process.”
While that’s something Tremblay might consider with any new work at this point in his career, the Bram Stoker Award-winning author of A Head Full of Ghosts, The Cabin at the End of the World, and many other novels and short stories tackled it in a more direct way with his latest book. Inspired by Philip K. Dick, Harlan Ellison, and the quirky humor of the Coen Brothers, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is Tremblay’s attempt at a sci-fi-horror mash-up that’s both darkly funny and existentially nightmarish. It’s also, in his own words, a screed against the movement by AI companies to supplant human artists.
“I didn’t want to make it too didactic, but no, I playfully described this book as an anti-AI screed,” he said. “This book, in particular, was driven by anger and frustration, for sure. Not every book is going to be driven that way.“
Despite the emotions that fueled it, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep does not read like a screed. Instead, wielding offbeat humor and tech concepts that feel both lived-in and frighteningly tactile, the book lays out tandem narratives all building to the same conclusion, each of them exploring our relationship to machine learning in a different way. One of these narratives belongs to Julia, a former gaming streamer looking for a new challenge in life, who gets a call from a California tech company with an interesting offer.
Paul Tremblay in documentary series “First Word on Horror”
The company has, it seems, implanted some new technology in a brain-dead middle-aged man which will, in theory, allow them to pilot the man’s body through a rudimentary, still-developing system of controls. Julia, with her gaming background, would be the pilot, in her own way just as much a test subject as the human vegetable she’s controlling.
Julia is a Gen Z streamer with an omnivorous pop culture appetite, inspired by Tremblay’s own adult children, who riffs on The Big Lebowski constantly and calls her strange new meat puppet “Bernie” in reference to Weekend at Bernie’s. Her wide frame of reference, and her interest in art and stories far beyond video games, is in part informed by Tremblay’s own experiences with Gen Z, and in part a response to AI companies who scrape art and culture as a means of consuming it for reference without really experiencing a story.
“I know that one of the arguments that OpenAI and other tech companies are trying to make is like, ‘Hey, you writers, you artists, you take pop culture, you take your influences, and you create something. That’s just the same thing that the bots are doing.’ And it’s just not,” Tremblay said. “I wanted to have Julia have her outlook informed by all this pop culture, and I wanted to make that feel really human as a way to show how inhuman the AI is.”
The other side of the story belongs to “Bernie,” who’s addressed in his point-of-view chapters as “You.” In these chapters, the technology in Bernie’s body starts to flicker images through his seemingly dead brain, delivering half-remembered imagery and perspective in a nod to the “hallucinations” of an AI model groping for understanding it can never reach. These chapters in particular show off Tremblay’s flair for formalist shake-ups, and echo the kind of hyperstimulated writing that Dick and Ellison made so influential.
“I think it was more just the general Philip K. Dick feeling of ‘The world is so strange,'” Tremblay said. “He’s a lot funnier, I think, than maybe a lot of people credit him. That’s definitely what I was thinking of when writing the book.“
Bernie’s chapters embody the strangeness of Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep, presenting imagery that’s at times puzzling, at times eerily filmic, and always unnerving. They also mirror Julia’s own journey in fascinating ways as the odd couple – the Gen Z gamer and the middle-aged vegetable – traverse the United States, and the tech in Bernie’s body wakes up to the possibilities of using his flesh for its own purposes. It’s a compelling narrative technique, but it presented some new writing challenges for Tremblay.
“I quickly realized I couldn’t write this book the same way I have in the past,” he said. “By that, I mean all my other novels I had written in the order in which it was presented, even things that are nonlinear, which is most of them. I knew I couldn’t do that in this book. It’s not a spoiler, but hopefully the readers figure out pretty early that the Bernie chapters are a little bit of a preview of the next chapter from Julia, what’s actually happening with Julia. It’s all refracted from him.”
Mary Roach’s Stiff
Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep began with a simple image, inspired by Tremblay’s reading of Mary Roach‘s book chronicling the history of our treatment of corpses, Stiff. As he read, Tremblay imagined a body sitting on an airplane, remote-controlled by someone else. At the time, it was a “silly what-if” concept, filed away in his head. Years later, when he became an author suing a tech company to keep AI from scraping his work for ideas, it started to feel frighteningly plausible, taking the “silly what-if” into the territory of a high-concept horror show about what happens when we try to exploit and commodify uniquely human aspects of consciousness.
“It stuck with me,” Tremblay said of that what-if imagery. “And then a few years later, when I was a part of the case suing OpenAI on behalf of writers, that what-if suddenly didn’t seem as silly. The more I learned about how that corporation operates and without really any sort of ethical thought to anything, I was like, ‘Oh, I’m going to play with that. That’s actually happening.”
So, what if someone actually in favor of generative AI picks up Tremblay’s self-described “anti-AI screed?” He hopes that, at the very least, he’s made the ride enjoyable in a distinctly human way that might begin to reshape the conversation.
“I think that was another reason why I wanted to have the humor,” Tremblay said. “If people are reading this book who aren’t on the side of like, ‘Hey, LLMs taking authors’ books is bad,’ maybe if they read something that’s cut with some humor, that maybe they’ll be more easily swayed.”
Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is now in bookstores everywhere.
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