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[Interview] Osgood Perkins on Making ‘Gretel & Hansel’ a Horror Movie for a Younger Audience

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Osgood Perkins is no stranger to the horror genre. Over the past five years he has delivered the soul-crushing satanist film The Blackcoat’s Daughter (review) and the somber ghost story I Am the Pretty Thing That Lives in the House (review). He now returns to us with Gretel & Hansel (review), an adaptation of the classic fairy tale written by the Brothers Grimm.

Perkins’ films have never relied much on gore to emphasize the horror of his stories, and Gretel & Hansel is no different. Still, the PG-13 rating (or “Pussy 13” rating, as some of our more vocal commenters have dubbed it) for a film about a cannibalistic witch who eats children has given some people pause. This is a story that could easily go the gory route, but Perkins opted to make Gretel & Hansel accessible for children. Snow White: A Tale of Terror this ain’t, but where some PG-13 horror films were originally meant to be R and then cut down to be PG-13 (looking at you, Black Christmas), this was never the case with Gretel & Hansel. When asked why that was, Perkins replied:

“From the very beginning that’s what I wanted to do. Where’s Gremlins today? Where’s the thing for kids that’s just slightly too freaky that just sort of trusts kids to be able to take care of themselves and to be able to emerge out from the other side and there’s just not a lot of those. So yes, the idea was always to honor the younger audience.”

Lest you think this means that Gretel & Hansel won’t also work for older audiences, rest assured that this is not the case. This is yet another instance where a film may not be meant for a certain target audience (hardcore horror fans of a certain age), but that doesn’t mean that they still can’t enjoy it. What Perkins has crafted is a film that works well for more mature viewers, but asks younger ones to rise to the challenge and view it on the same level:

“The trick here is to make sure that the younger audience can hang with it and the gamble is that younger audiences want to be treated with a little bit more intelligence and want to be asked for some patience as opposed to just being given the lowest common denominator thing which, to me, feels like we’re trying to soothe the kids for a minute. I would rather just lift them up with a challenge.”

If you’re familiar with Perkins’ two previous films, you’ll know that he is a fan of leisurely pacing. Unlike those films, he didn’t write Gretel & Hansel (that honor would go to Rob Hayes), but the film still feels like a Perkins film, both from a visual and a narrative perspective. This is a bit puzzling, as you don’t often find many children’s movies that are paced as deliberately as Gretel & Hansel. That is where the film’s brief 87-minute runtime comes into play, but Perkins said he wasn’t worried about boring the audience, telling us:

“Worried? No. Aware? Yeah. We always had an eye on [the pacing] and always had an eye on running time. There’s so many components to succeeding with a movie for kids. There’s a lot that needs to be constantly considered. I feel like we didn’t make the movie overly complicated. We didn’t make the movie overly long. We put some fun into it. I feel like kids are going to say ‘Thanks for giving us a chance to watch something that’s a little bit hard for us.'”

Gretel & Hansel was released in theaters nationwide today.

A journalist for Bloody Disgusting since 2015, Trace writes film reviews and editorials, as well as co-hosts Bloody Disgusting's Horror Queers podcast, which looks at horror films through a queer lens. He has since become dedicated to amplifying queer voices in the horror community, while also injecting his own personal flair into film discourse. Trace lives in Denver, CO with his husband and their two dogs. Find him on Twitter @TracedThurman

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Interviews

Paul Tremblay on Fighting AI with Horror in New Novel ‘Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep’

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Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep Review - Paul Tremblay AI Horror

Paul Tremblay didn’t start his writing career believing he’d be battling machines over the sanctity of his job, but like so many writers of his generation, the battle found him. In the years since Large Language Models (LLMs) and neural networks started gaining traction as an advertised shortcut to creativity, Tremblay has been active in lawsuits to prevent the use of his works in training AI models, and he’s found that, with each new project, he has to consider the possibility that some LLM, somewhere, is going to latch on to what he’s creating. 

“Now I feel like I’m thinking about, ‘Man, how am I going to write things that would be really hard or impossible for an AI to replicate?’,” Tremblay told me, speaking by Zoom from his home in Massachusetts. “Maybe some of that is ego. I’m sure every writer thinks, ‘Oh, an AI could never write what I write.’ Yes, I’d be lying if I said that wasn’t part of the thought process.”

While that’s something Tremblay might consider with any new work at this point in his career, the Bram Stoker Award-winning author of A Head Full of Ghosts, The Cabin at the End of the World, and many other novels and short stories tackled it in a more direct way with his latest book. Inspired by Philip K. Dick, Harlan Ellison, and the quirky humor of the Coen Brothers, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is Tremblay’s attempt at a sci-fi-horror mash-up that’s both darkly funny and existentially nightmarish. It’s also, in his own words, a screed against the movement by AI companies to supplant human artists. 

I didn’t want to make it too didactic, but no, I playfully described this book as an anti-AI screed,” he said. “This book, in particular, was driven by anger and frustration, for sure. Not every book is going to be driven that way.

Despite the emotions that fueled it, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep does not read like a screed. Instead, wielding offbeat humor and tech concepts that feel both lived-in and frighteningly tactile, the book lays out tandem narratives all building to the same conclusion, each of them exploring our relationship to machine learning in a different way. One of these narratives belongs to Julia, a former gaming streamer looking for a new challenge in life, who gets a call from a California tech company with an interesting offer.

Paul Tremblay in documentary series “First Word on Horror”

The company has, it seems, implanted some new technology in a brain-dead middle-aged man which will, in theory, allow them to pilot the man’s body through a rudimentary, still-developing system of controls. Julia, with her gaming background, would be the pilot, in her own way just as much a test subject as the human vegetable she’s controlling. 

Julia is a Gen Z streamer with an omnivorous pop culture appetite, inspired by Tremblay’s own adult children, who riffs on The Big Lebowski constantly and calls her strange new meat puppet “Bernie” in reference to Weekend at Bernie’s. Her wide frame of reference, and her interest in art and stories far beyond video games, is in part informed by Tremblay’s own experiences with Gen Z, and in part a response to AI companies who scrape art and culture as a means of consuming it for reference without really experiencing a story. 

“I know that one of the arguments that OpenAI and other tech companies are trying to make is like, ‘Hey, you writers, you artists, you take pop culture, you take your influences, and you create something. That’s just the same thing that the bots are doing.’ And it’s just not,” Tremblay said. “I wanted to have Julia have her outlook informed by all this pop culture, and I wanted to make that feel really human as a way to show how inhuman the AI is.”

The other side of the story belongs to “Bernie,” who’s addressed in his point-of-view chapters as “You.” In these chapters, the technology in Bernie’s body starts to flicker images through his seemingly dead brain, delivering half-remembered imagery and perspective in a nod to the “hallucinations” of an AI model groping for understanding it can never reach. These chapters in particular show off Tremblay’s flair for formalist shake-ups, and echo the kind of hyperstimulated writing that Dick and Ellison made so influential. 

“I think it was more just the general Philip K. Dick feeling of ‘The world is so strange,'” Tremblay said. “He’s a lot funnier, I think, than maybe a lot of people credit him. That’s definitely what I was thinking of when writing the book.

Bernie’s chapters embody the strangeness of Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep, presenting imagery that’s at times puzzling, at times eerily filmic, and always unnerving. They also mirror Julia’s own journey in fascinating ways as the odd couple – the Gen Z gamer and the middle-aged vegetable – traverse the United States, and the tech in Bernie’s body wakes up to the possibilities of using his flesh for its own purposes. It’s a compelling narrative technique, but it presented some new writing challenges for Tremblay. 

“I quickly realized I couldn’t write this book the same way I have in the past,” he said. “By that, I mean all my other novels I had written in the order in which it was presented, even things that are nonlinear, which is most of them. I knew I couldn’t do that in this book. It’s not a spoiler, but hopefully the readers figure out pretty early that the Bernie chapters are a little bit of a preview of the next chapter from Julia, what’s actually happening with Julia. It’s all refracted from him.”

Mary Roach’s Stiff

Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep began with a simple image, inspired by Tremblay’s reading of Mary Roach‘s book chronicling the history of our treatment of corpses, Stiff. As he read, Tremblay imagined a body sitting on an airplane, remote-controlled by someone else. At the time, it was a “silly what-if” concept, filed away in his head. Years later, when he became an author suing a tech company to keep AI from scraping his work for ideas, it started to feel frighteningly plausible, taking the “silly what-if” into the territory of a high-concept horror show about what happens when we try to exploit and commodify uniquely human aspects of consciousness. 

“It stuck with me,” Tremblay said of that what-if imagery. “And then a few years later, when I was a part of the case suing OpenAI on behalf of writers, that what-if suddenly didn’t seem as silly. The more I learned about how that corporation operates and without really any sort of ethical thought to anything, I was like, ‘Oh, I’m going to play with that. That’s actually happening.”

So, what if someone actually in favor of generative AI picks up Tremblay’s self-described “anti-AI screed?” He hopes that, at the very least, he’s made the ride enjoyable in a distinctly human way that might begin to reshape the conversation. 

“I think that was another reason why I wanted to have the humor,” Tremblay said. “If people are reading this book who aren’t on the side of like, ‘Hey, LLMs taking authors’ books is bad,’ maybe if they read something that’s cut with some humor, that maybe they’ll be more easily swayed.”

Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is now in bookstores everywhere. 

Dead but Dreaming of electric sheep

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