Interviews
‘Old Man’: Lucky McKee on Working with Stephen Lang and Finding Catharsis in Horror [Interview]
Since directing his first film All Cheerleaders Die in 2001, to May in 2002, and segments in Masters of Horror and Tales of Halloween, it’s safe to say filmmaker Lucky McKee has gained a cult following. His work usually explores some of the darker sides of humanity and things that most of us would never do, but the characters are relatable, and this is what makes McKee’s films appealing—it can be liberating to exorcise your demons by watching a movie about characters who do monstrous things, but without any of the messy consequences.
Written by Joel Veach in his screenwriting debut, McKee’s new film Old Man, stars the incomparable Stephen Lang (Avatar, Don’t Breathe) as the Old Man, who lives in a cabin deep in the woods. When a lost hiker named Joe, played by Marc Senter (Tales of Halloween, Starry Eyes), knocks on the Old Man’s door asking for help, a charged conversation ensues between the two men. Joe just wants directions, but first he will have to listen to a few stories from the Old Man and prove that he is trustworthy. Stephen Lang gives an incredible performance as the Old Man, who becomes more mysterious and terrifying with each tale he tells Joe. As the story unfolds, it becomes clear that each man may have something to hide.
Bloody Disgusting was delighted to have the opportunity to chat with Lucky McKee about Old Man, working with Stephen Lang and Marc Senter, his previous films, and a lot more. Read on to find out what we talked about.
RLJE Films will release Old Man in theaters, on demand, and digital on October 14.
Bloody Disgusting: I’ve seen Old Man and I loved it! It was written by Joel Veach, in his screenwriting debut, and of course, you directed. This film feels slightly different from your previous work. What appealed to you most about this script?
Lucky McKee: It’s my first male-driven film [laughs]. What appealed to me was the character of the Old Man. I knew these kinds of characters growing up. I was raised by them in a way. I always felt very different from them [laughs]. But there was always the need and the want as a kid to try to understand why somebody thinks that way or acts that way. I just saw a lot of truth in what he had written, and I connected with it in a really personal way, which is what you have to do if you want to spend as much time as we do making these things.
BD: Stephen Lang is always awesome and he’s just perfect in this movie. Why did you want him for the role of the Old Man and what was it like working with him?
LM: Isn’t he rad? He had an understanding of the character that I thought was great; he had a lot of ideas he was bringing to the table that I thought were great. Years back, they made a little film of this tour he was going on; he was going around and doing this one-man show for veterans where he would become these different characters, different veterans from different eras. He would be one guy and then he would switch over and become another guy and it was just this fantastic thing and it was also very theatrical. The more research I did on him, and I realized how deeply rooted in the theater he is, I thought, “This is an actor I can shoot a ten-minute long, uninterrupted take of, who is going to know his lines and who knows how to map out a performance from beginning to end, like great theater actors do.”
And we just got along. We talked on the phone, and we got along and he’s a grade A ball-buster in the best possible way. That made things really fun. He’s from my parents’ generation and that was kind of cool. He just brought so much to it. The thing that I loved about it is also quite often you’ve seen him playing the heavy, or playing the tough guy, or playing the supporting part, but this is a real showcase. This is a real opportunity for him to go a lot of different places emotionally and just use the kind of the skill set that this man has acquired over forty years of acting. It was a real honor to get to do that.
BD: There are some really long takes on him in this movie that are very interesting.
LM: Yeah, why cut away if he’s giving the goods [laughs]?
BD: The bulk of the story takes place in one location and involves an intense conversation between the Old Man and a lost hiker Joe, played by Marc Senter, who is also great. What was it like filming, as far as the location, and the way you wanted to tell the story?
LM: It was really great because we got to work on a stage and we got to build the set from scratch, so that meant we got to really build a lot of meaning into it and a lot of texture, and design it in a way that went with the type of lenses we wanted to use. So, that was really important. Then it was on me and my DP going into it, but this was not a storyboarded movie, this was not a shot list movie. We would show up in the morning, we knew we had a ten-minute run that we were going to shoot or like an eight-minute run, and we would just rehearse for like an hour. We would be like, “What if you stand over here?” Guys like Lang and Marc Senter have these deep roots in theater, so they really know how to work a set. So, it wasn’t about me being a puppet master telling them to stand here or say it like this or that. It was like, “Let’s just put it on its feet and see what happens.”
Sometimes the notions I had before would work and sometimes they didn’t work at all because we discovered something more exciting. Then it was on me and the DP to just get the camera in the right place to capture all the great stuff these guys were doing. I’m glad you liked Marc’s performance too. This clearly has Stephen Lang’s name over the title, but this movie does not work without what Marc is doing and the way he reacts to the Old Man and the mystery that comes with his character is just vital to the way it functions. I’m really, really proud of the performance Marc turned in for this film. I’m just so excited. It’s so unique. Nobody else would have played that character that same way and that’s really exciting to me.
BD: The conversations feel authentic and natural, and this film is really good at building tension. I didn’t trust either one of the characters up to the big reveal.
LM: Good! Hopefully, after those revelations that you have watching the movie, the movie is very much inviting you to look at it again. And the second time you look at it, you’re going to have a completely different emotional reaction to it, which is really cool. The thing transforms after the first viewing.
BD: Marc Senter also starred in your Tales of Halloween segment ‘Ding Dong,’ which I love, with Pollyanna McIntosh. You’ve worked with each of them a couple of times, and Angela Bettis a couple of times, for May and Sick Girl. What is it that you enjoy most about working with these actors, since you’ve worked with them multiple times?
LM: Just that we have a connection, we have an emotional connection. I don’t like to work with people who don’t have fire in their belly for what they do, that don’t have that obsession like they do [laughs]. The people that you brought up, they all bring something totally unique to the game and it’s fascinating to me. Words on a page are one thing and you and I can picture things one way, but when an actor comes in with behavior and with their emotional baggage and is able to plug-in underneath that and create something that is so much more than what you could have imagined with the written words on the page, that’s exciting to me. That keeps it exciting, and those actors have the ability to do that. They elevate material that they work on.
BD: I’m a big fan of your work, especially May and the Masters of Horror episode you did called Sick Girl. A lot of your films, including Old Man, feature people who are tormented or haunted by something, whether it’s real or imaginary. Why do you enjoy telling stories about these kinds of people?
LM: Well, aren’t we all kind of tortured or tormented in some way or another to varying degrees [laughs]? Movies have the ability to explore those things and explore those feelings that are kind of bubbling inside of us in a heightened, dramatic context. I think that’s why horror is such a wonderful genre because they literally get to the point of those emotions meaning life or death; making the right decisions and who you are as a person. I’m also really fascinated with showing monsters and monstrous behavior but also showing that there is a three-dimensional being there, that there is a reason underneath that. Not everything is a hundred percent good or a hundred percent bad. We all have that kind of battle going on inside us. I find that fascinating and just continue to explore it [laughs].
BD: That’s exactly why I’m such a big fan of your work, because of those kinds of characters.
LM: Thank you! And to not be judgmental of those people.
BD: Oh yeah, I relate to May. I’m not killing people, but she’s relatable [laughs].
LM: Oh me, too! [laughs] Absolutely! Those impulses and urges and those frustrations and all that stuff gets bottled up inside most of us, but in a movie that person can act those feelings out. There’s something cathartic about that.
Of all the places to find a coven of witches, the attic above a Christian youth camp is probably the last place you’d think to look. But that’s just what we find in Camp, a surrealist nightmare of feminist empowerment from Canadian filmmaker Avalon Fast.
Emily (Zola Grimmer) is still reckoning with her involvement in a horrific tragedy when she accidentally contributes to the death of her best friend, Charlie (Giselle Morison). Unable to move on, the traumatized teen takes a job at a rural summer camp, hoping to forget her own sorrows by looking after at-risk kids. She quickly connects with a counselor named Clara (Alice Wordsworth) and finds comfort in her close-knit group of female friends. But a mysterious whisper from deep in the woods warns that they may be leading her down a darker path.
Fast burst onto the scene in 2022 with Honeycomb, a psychological horror film that follows a burgeoning matriarchy. Known for their focus on “Girl Horror” stories, the talented young filmmaker tackles similar themes in Camp as Emily leaves the modern world behind to embrace a dark vision of self-discovery through magic.
Ahead of the film’s U.S. release on June 26, Bloody Disgusting sat down with Fast to chat about the nebulous nature of good vs. evil and the intoxicating power of female-driven horror.
Bloody Disgusting: What inspired this unique story? Did you go to religious summer camps when you were young?
Avalon Fast: I did. I went to lots of different summer camps, but all of them were primarily Bible camps. The memory I have of camp is kind of strange. I was very homesick as a kid, and I didn’t necessarily enjoy all my time there. I definitely remember meeting some interesting girls at camp and having that presence of religion hovering around the whole experience.
BD: I really love the film’s gorgeous natural setting. Camp is the kind of surrealist nightmare that you don’t just watch. You feel it too. How did you approach creating this world?
AF: Well, a huge part of it was working with my cinematographer Eily Sprungman, who’s a very close friend. We spent years prepping, shot listing, storyboarding, and mood boarding. She’d had a similar experience to mine. We grew up around the same place, and so we understood each other’s visions from the get-go. But there are so many other pieces that came together. The costuming, the art, and the animated sequences were done by Sofiya Iurkevych. One of our producers, Taylor Nodrick, was obsessed with shooting on Super 8 film. I’ve always wanted to as well, so all the memory sequences were shot on Super 8. It was just a lot of people with an understanding and a vision for what this project was. I’m really happy with the way it turned out.
To the extent that you’re comfortable sharing, what’s your relationship to witchcraft, and what does Camp have to say about modern witches?
Well, that’s the question of Camp. It’s not that I don’t resonate with any of these things, but I specifically wanted Camp to be a little bit ambiguous around what witchcraft looks like. Is this witchcraft? Are these girls witches? Emily explicitly asks if that’s what’s happening here, and the answer isn’t yes. The film isn’t going to answer that question for you. My relationship to magic and witchcraft? It’s tough. I feel like there’s so much magic, connection, and spirituality that comes from these friendships, the closeness of these women, and what’s happening around them. A lot of what Camp is trying to say or show is just that magic can come out of friendship.
I loved watching these female friendships develop. And you’re right. No one ever says the word “coven,” but you can feel that connection, and you can see a change in Emily as those relationships grow. I’m also really fascinated with the way Camp plays with the idea of good and evil. At one point, Clara says, “Maybe God drew us to the devil,” which stopped me in my tracks. How do you view witchcraft or the magic these girls are experiencing in regard to good and evil?
That was such a huge part of the script’s construction. The story is really trying to keep a balance between those two things. I like asking people if they think these girls are good or bad, because I feel like a lot of people come out of the film thinking one or the other. They’ll say things like “thank God Emily found her people” or “God, I really wish she’d gone home.” I just don’t think there’s ever an answer. I wanted to explore the idea of going down the wrong path, especially coming out of grief. What makes you a bad person, and does healing mean you’re looking to become a better person? I don’t have an answer, but I do feel like that’s a huge part of what Camp is asking. What is good? What is bad? Why did God bring me to the devil?
Yes, because this is all happening at “God camp” in Emily’s words. So how can both of those things exist at the same time? Along those lines, I’m also fascinated by the voice Emily hears in the woods. Without spoiling too much, what is this voice asking, and what is required in return?
Emily comes to camp with a shout into the void, asking can anyone hear me? Does anyone want to? And it’s answered so clearly by these girls, specifically responding only with love, care, support, and trust. It’s like her prayers were answered. It doesn’t mean that everything is going to be alright, but Emily is looking for peace. She’s looking for a moment where she feels pure good. And I think, even at its surface level, she does get that experience.
Personally, I don’t really think people are good or bad. I think we all exist somewhere in the middle. Camp centers traditionally villainized characters, but that’s where Emily seems to find her peace, however you choose to define it.
I also wanted to show the experience of having decided that you are a bad person, you’ve made mistakes, and you feel cursed. Then when you meet other people who have done things that you would consider worse, you can actually feel good in their presence. You feel like less of a bad person. I think that’s a huge part of the story as well. Emily’s finding her version of other fucked up people, and she feels less fucked up around them. I’ve found that in my own life. It’s a cool thing. I don’t think it’s bad.
I don’t think it’s bad either. It’s finding your home, your people. We meet Emily in the aftermath of unthinkable trauma. Is this a story about mental health and healing?
Witnessing it myself. witnessing other people experience tragedy and then move through grief, you hear a lot of talk about healing or coming out the other side. There’s so much conversation around what that looks like, with self-care and showing up for yourself. I always felt really averse to it. It annoyed me. I think the beginning of the film speaks to that. The therapeutic version of what getting help looks like is obviously very different from what Camp is showing. And again, I don’t have an answer for what you’re supposed to do. But I think that’s another question I was asking: how do you heal? Do you heal at all? Is that the end goal, or are we just trying to get better? It’s something I experienced in my own grief. And the answer, for me, at least now, is just that I’m not looking to get better. So I felt like I hadn’t. I found it hard to find people to have those conversations with. And I think that’s what I ultimately wanted to make a film about.
I love that unanswered question. In my own experience, I’ve had to reframe what healing actually looks like. There’s not really an endpoint. It’s just finding a way to keep going. There’s also an element of sacrifice in this story, particularly regarding another counselor named Jo (Sophie Bawks-Smith). What role does she play in Emily’s journey?
For me, Jo is this human embodiment of Charlie, Emily’s friend. As Jo, she had a life at this camp before meeting Emily, and then was kind of taken over by Charlie’s spirit. I think a lot of people view Emily’s final choice as horrendous and tragic. In a way it is, but for me, if Jo becomes her angel, it’s almost like a self-sacrifice. Jo knows that by sacrificing herself, she’ll be giving Emily power to move forward. In the original script, the girls were supposed to bring out another counselor, JB (Aidan Laudersmith), and burn his body. But I just thought, there’s no way sacrificing this guy could give the girls enough power. There’s just no way, right? Logically, that just didn’t line up for me.
I’m glad you mentioned JB, because he has his own tragic arc. How do men factor into the world of Camp?
The way men factor into my world is so bizarre. I have such little respect for them in my films, which is something I’ve been called on. I think I have to challenge myself in the future to make a movie about a boy because, these boys … It’s not that the men in my films aren’t redeemable, but there’s no depth to these characters. They’re just treated with such disrespect. I don’t know why I do that, actually. That’s something for me to look into. It was the same with Honeycomb. They’re just such peripheral characters. I’ve had people ask about Kayne (Henri Gillespi), the scary guy at the fire, what happens to him? I just think, I don’t know. I don’t care. That’s not the point of the story.
Well, I can say after a lifetime of watching women on the periphery of the story, the course correction feels nice. In a similar vein, I’m in love with your homepage, avalonfast.com. There’s an image of girls on a film set and then a still from Honeycomb in which a blood-covered girl is screaming at the sky. And in the middle, it just says Girl Horror. It’s a really powerful statement that gives me chills. How do you define Girl Horror, and what draws you to these types of stories?
I was obsessed with the term when I started making my movies. It was something I’d come up with to kind of brand myself and describe what I was doing. Then I went through a period where I felt like it was a bit gender exclusive and didn’t interest me as much. But now I’ve come full circle on the term. I think it’s a bit of a commentary on youth and the horror of growing up female. But I think everybody can relate to that experience. I don’t want it to feel like this exclusive thing, that I make movies exclusively for girls, because I don’t think I do. I’m interested in exploring what Girl Horror means. Originally, it was just a title, something I came up with, and now it’s become something that resonates with people. You said it gave you chills. That’s cool for me to hear because there’s obviously some depth there.
Are you working on anything new?
Yes. I am actually making a movie about a boy. That’s the next thing.
That’s exciting! The more I think about feminism, the more I end up coming back to men and boys, because they have a place in the world of Girl Horror too.
Absolutely. It’s all just part of being human.
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