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‘V/H/S/85’ – Natasha Kermani Unlocks Cosmic Horror Through Cyberpunk in Segment “TKNOGD”

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V/H/S/85 Natasha Kermani

Writer/Director Natasha Kermani (Imitation GirlLucky) uses cyberpunk horror to tap into contemporary anxieties over technology in her V/H/S/85 segment “TKNOGD.”

The latest anthology installment rewinds to a grittier 1985 and arrives exclusively on Shudder on October 6.

Bloody Disgusting caught up with Kermani ahead of V/H/S/85’s Shudder debut to learn more about her segment and its cyberpunk origins.

There was no question for the filmmaker that she’d tap into her love of sci-fi horror for “TKNOGD.”

“Yeah, I just love that stuff,” Kermani says. “I mean, Johnny Mnemonic and Lawnmower Man, it’s just a very weird sub-genre. That was our goal. The pinnacle was, ‘Can we do Lawnmower Man?’ I really love the cyberpunk thing. Like, ‘hack the world, man.’ That was totally my vibe for a long time. So it was fun to get to go back to that world that I just really loved as a kid in particular. I read a lot of William Gibson books, and I’m just a big sci-fi nerd. Then, going to ’85, we found a lot of great real performance art, archival footage that was stuff that we were referencing.”

Kermani continues, “But I think one of the big things that happened was we found a tape from, there’s an artist and a thinker named Jaron Lanier, and he was one of the first people really exploring virtual reality conceptually, also technologically, he would develop a lot of the technology that was doing it. He’s a philosopher, so he would have these long, rambling videos of himself talking about this stuff. So writer Zoe Cooper and I found this video and were like, ‘This is perfect.’ There’s a video within the video, no spoilers, but that video is pretty authentic, pretty much exactly pulled from these videos as they exist. So, even referring to them as iPhones, that is literally the terminology they used in 1985.

“Finding all those little happy accidents, but starting that journey because we loved this idea of this image that the film ends on, is what we started with. That idea of technology consuming us was very exciting, and I think it taps into a lot of the anxieties that were present in 1985, for sure, a time of immense change. And also in 2023, right? We’re talking about AI; we’re talking about our addiction to social media and phones. It felt like a great playground to play in with horror and explore those anxieties because a tool is neither inherently good nor evil. Our anxieties lie around our own frailties, whether or not we are worthy of wielding these incredibly powerful tools. That’s something they were talking about quite a bit in 1985, and 40 years later, we’re still having those same conversations, and there’s no clear answer.

The idea of virtual reality, at least in its application in horror, opens up the possibilities of portals into alternate universes or realities. More specifically, it brushes against cosmic horror. 

Kermani reflects on this, “I think there is something, there is a religiosity to that subgenre, that idea of creating a world, being a world creator, and then who controls that world? It is totally cosmic. It doesn’t look exactly the way they thought it would in 1985, but in a lot of ways, we are living in their reality. He said iPhones. It wasn’t the way he thought it would be, but there sure as shit are iPhones everywhere. I think it’s an interesting call and response to our world. So hopefully when you’re watching the film, you can live in their brains that they were having in ’85. And then also thinking about your own reality when you walk out of the theater, you turn off the video, and you go back to your own life and seeing what that conversation is between the decades.”

Look for V/H/S/85 on Shudder this Friday.

Horror journalist, RT Top Critic, and Critics Choice Association member. Has appeared on PBS series' Monstrum, served on the SXSW Midnighter shorts jury, and moderated horror panels for WonderCon, SeriesFest, and Popcorn Frights Film Fest.

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Interviews

Paul Tremblay on Fighting AI with Horror in New Novel ‘Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep’

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Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep Review - Paul Tremblay AI Horror

Paul Tremblay didn’t start his writing career believing he’d be battling machines over the sanctity of his job, but like so many writers of his generation, the battle found him. In the years since Large Language Models (LLMs) and neural networks started gaining traction as an advertised shortcut to creativity, Tremblay has been active in lawsuits to prevent the use of his works in training AI models, and he’s found that, with each new project, he has to consider the possibility that some LLM, somewhere, is going to latch on to what he’s creating. 

“Now I feel like I’m thinking about, ‘Man, how am I going to write things that would be really hard or impossible for an AI to replicate?’,” Tremblay told me, speaking by Zoom from his home in Massachusetts. “Maybe some of that is ego. I’m sure every writer thinks, ‘Oh, an AI could never write what I write.’ Yes, I’d be lying if I said that wasn’t part of the thought process.”

While that’s something Tremblay might consider with any new work at this point in his career, the Bram Stoker Award-winning author of A Head Full of Ghosts, The Cabin at the End of the World, and many other novels and short stories tackled it in a more direct way with his latest book. Inspired by Philip K. Dick, Harlan Ellison, and the quirky humor of the Coen Brothers, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is Tremblay’s attempt at a sci-fi-horror mash-up that’s both darkly funny and existentially nightmarish. It’s also, in his own words, a screed against the movement by AI companies to supplant human artists. 

I didn’t want to make it too didactic, but no, I playfully described this book as an anti-AI screed,” he said. “This book, in particular, was driven by anger and frustration, for sure. Not every book is going to be driven that way.

Despite the emotions that fueled it, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep does not read like a screed. Instead, wielding offbeat humor and tech concepts that feel both lived-in and frighteningly tactile, the book lays out tandem narratives all building to the same conclusion, each of them exploring our relationship to machine learning in a different way. One of these narratives belongs to Julia, a former gaming streamer looking for a new challenge in life, who gets a call from a California tech company with an interesting offer.

Paul Tremblay in documentary series “First Word on Horror”

The company has, it seems, implanted some new technology in a brain-dead middle-aged man which will, in theory, allow them to pilot the man’s body through a rudimentary, still-developing system of controls. Julia, with her gaming background, would be the pilot, in her own way just as much a test subject as the human vegetable she’s controlling. 

Julia is a Gen Z streamer with an omnivorous pop culture appetite, inspired by Tremblay’s own adult children, who riffs on The Big Lebowski constantly and calls her strange new meat puppet “Bernie” in reference to Weekend at Bernie’s. Her wide frame of reference, and her interest in art and stories far beyond video games, is in part informed by Tremblay’s own experiences with Gen Z, and in part a response to AI companies who scrape art and culture as a means of consuming it for reference without really experiencing a story. 

“I know that one of the arguments that OpenAI and other tech companies are trying to make is like, ‘Hey, you writers, you artists, you take pop culture, you take your influences, and you create something. That’s just the same thing that the bots are doing.’ And it’s just not,” Tremblay said. “I wanted to have Julia have her outlook informed by all this pop culture, and I wanted to make that feel really human as a way to show how inhuman the AI is.”

The other side of the story belongs to “Bernie,” who’s addressed in his point-of-view chapters as “You.” In these chapters, the technology in Bernie’s body starts to flicker images through his seemingly dead brain, delivering half-remembered imagery and perspective in a nod to the “hallucinations” of an AI model groping for understanding it can never reach. These chapters in particular show off Tremblay’s flair for formalist shake-ups, and echo the kind of hyperstimulated writing that Dick and Ellison made so influential. 

“I think it was more just the general Philip K. Dick feeling of ‘The world is so strange,'” Tremblay said. “He’s a lot funnier, I think, than maybe a lot of people credit him. That’s definitely what I was thinking of when writing the book.

Bernie’s chapters embody the strangeness of Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep, presenting imagery that’s at times puzzling, at times eerily filmic, and always unnerving. They also mirror Julia’s own journey in fascinating ways as the odd couple – the Gen Z gamer and the middle-aged vegetable – traverse the United States, and the tech in Bernie’s body wakes up to the possibilities of using his flesh for its own purposes. It’s a compelling narrative technique, but it presented some new writing challenges for Tremblay. 

“I quickly realized I couldn’t write this book the same way I have in the past,” he said. “By that, I mean all my other novels I had written in the order in which it was presented, even things that are nonlinear, which is most of them. I knew I couldn’t do that in this book. It’s not a spoiler, but hopefully the readers figure out pretty early that the Bernie chapters are a little bit of a preview of the next chapter from Julia, what’s actually happening with Julia. It’s all refracted from him.”

Mary Roach’s Stiff

Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep began with a simple image, inspired by Tremblay’s reading of Mary Roach‘s book chronicling the history of our treatment of corpses, Stiff. As he read, Tremblay imagined a body sitting on an airplane, remote-controlled by someone else. At the time, it was a “silly what-if” concept, filed away in his head. Years later, when he became an author suing a tech company to keep AI from scraping his work for ideas, it started to feel frighteningly plausible, taking the “silly what-if” into the territory of a high-concept horror show about what happens when we try to exploit and commodify uniquely human aspects of consciousness. 

“It stuck with me,” Tremblay said of that what-if imagery. “And then a few years later, when I was a part of the case suing OpenAI on behalf of writers, that what-if suddenly didn’t seem as silly. The more I learned about how that corporation operates and without really any sort of ethical thought to anything, I was like, ‘Oh, I’m going to play with that. That’s actually happening.”

So, what if someone actually in favor of generative AI picks up Tremblay’s self-described “anti-AI screed?” He hopes that, at the very least, he’s made the ride enjoyable in a distinctly human way that might begin to reshape the conversation. 

“I think that was another reason why I wanted to have the humor,” Tremblay said. “If people are reading this book who aren’t on the side of like, ‘Hey, LLMs taking authors’ books is bad,’ maybe if they read something that’s cut with some humor, that maybe they’ll be more easily swayed.”

Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is now in bookstores everywhere. 

Dead but Dreaming of electric sheep

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