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‘Hail Satan?’ Director Penny Lane Believes the Satanic Temple Will Lead the Anti-Satanic Panic [Interview]

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Horror fans especially remember the Satanic panic of the ‘80s and ‘90s. We got hassled for playing Dungeons and Dragons. Innocent goths like the West Memphis Three (and many more less publicized cases) got wrongfully convicted in the Satanic panic. Geraldo Rivera even did an “expose” on secret Satanic cult rituals. It’s part of the backstory of Penny Lane’s Sundance documentary Hail Satan?, about The Satanic Temple’s recent fights for separation of church and state and religious pluralism. Lane has faith that The Satanic Temple’s efforts will not bring about a new Satanic panic, but rather have the opposite effect.

I think the opposite actually because I think the more they’re out there getting their message across, the less likely we are to be able to say, ‘Oh, there’s this secret Satanic network,’” Lane told us at Sundance. “No, they’re not secret. They’re out in the open. It’s harder to ascribe these evildoings to them because they’re there doing highway cleanups. It’s difficult to say, ‘Look at this horrible group. Look how evil they are.’

In addition to proposing to erect a Baphomet statue to counter the State of Arkansas’s Ten Commandments monument, The Satanic Temple does community service like roadside cleanup. They use pitchforks to pick up trash. You can’t deny they’ve got showmanship. As pointed out in Hail Satan?, while everyone was scared of Satanists, the Catholic Church was covering up and continuing sexual abuse.

It was never the Satanists,” Lane explained. “I think that’s such a huge misconception that again, it goes into the list of 10 deeply held misconceptions that my film is begging people to at least reconsider. Most people that I know, Satanic panic was part of our childhood. Those people that I know take it absolutely for granted that there were, in fact, Satanic cults all around the country who were doing these horrible evil things in the ‘80s and ‘90s and everyone knows that’s true. I’m like, ‘But how do you not know that there weren’t?’ No one knows that because we’ve never, as a culture, taken the time to stop and think what was that all about? It was just this embarrassing, humiliating thing that we’ve shoved down the memory hole because it’s so embarrassing.”

Even films that debunk false accusations only focus on debunking one particular case at a time. And maybe Hail Satan? can’t free everyone falsely accused of Satanic crimes, but at least through this film and through the rise of the Satanic Temple, more awareness can be brought to a multitude of injustices.

Lane explains, “The Paradise Lost films and also Capturing the Friedmans… not to dis those films, they’re great films, part of the canon. [But] they don’t do the kind of work of situating those individual cases as being simply one out of 100s of similar cases that happened constantly, all around the country for more than a decade, right? So you can watch those films and feel the outrage of those individual cases, but these were just isolated events that were happening everywhere. There are still people rotting in prison unjustly for these fake Satanic crimes.”

The Satanic Temple has spread to include worldwide chapters. What began as a way to troll Christians by endorsing Rick Scott became a place where real social outcasts could find each other. That is how Satanism will become an accepted religion, Lane feels – when people see that Satanists are really just like everyone else.

In their own words, they tend to be kind of loser, weirdo, outcasts who never fit in,” Lane noted. “I found it so moving to think about how those people could be collected together into something. To see them find each other and find communion and to remember how deeply important that is for us as humans, to find people who understand us and love us and understand and can be part of the same world. It’s just really meaningful. I wasn’t expecting to end the project with this newfound respect for and appreciation for religion and what it does and how it functions for human beings in society. That’s what I learned. It was a very surprising outcome, because starting where we start with this troll and satire, to land in a place of feeling so much love and warmth and that kind of stuff was a big deal for me.”

The movie is about the birth of a new religion,” Lane continued. “That’s one way you can frame it. You can look at any, and I mean any religion that now exists, that we now take for granted as being normal, and look at its origin story and tell me it’s not insane. Tell me the miracles of Jesus are not publicity stunts and scams or jokes or hoaxes. Look at Joseph Smith finding those golden tablets and having this crazy story that’s actually bonkers if you hear it. If you look at Scientology, whatever, this only looks weird to us because it is new. If you get a time machine and you flash forward 100 years, my prediction is Satanism will be just another one of these weirdo American religions that we will just take for granted.”

Hail Satan? opens this April from Magnolia Pictures.

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Interviews

Paul Tremblay on Fighting AI with Horror in New Novel ‘Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep’

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Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep Review - Paul Tremblay AI Horror

Paul Tremblay didn’t start his writing career believing he’d be battling machines over the sanctity of his job, but like so many writers of his generation, the battle found him. In the years since Large Language Models (LLMs) and neural networks started gaining traction as an advertised shortcut to creativity, Tremblay has been active in lawsuits to prevent the use of his works in training AI models, and he’s found that, with each new project, he has to consider the possibility that some LLM, somewhere, is going to latch on to what he’s creating. 

“Now I feel like I’m thinking about, ‘Man, how am I going to write things that would be really hard or impossible for an AI to replicate?’,” Tremblay told me, speaking by Zoom from his home in Massachusetts. “Maybe some of that is ego. I’m sure every writer thinks, ‘Oh, an AI could never write what I write.’ Yes, I’d be lying if I said that wasn’t part of the thought process.”

While that’s something Tremblay might consider with any new work at this point in his career, the Bram Stoker Award-winning author of A Head Full of Ghosts, The Cabin at the End of the World, and many other novels and short stories tackled it in a more direct way with his latest book. Inspired by Philip K. Dick, Harlan Ellison, and the quirky humor of the Coen Brothers, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is Tremblay’s attempt at a sci-fi-horror mash-up that’s both darkly funny and existentially nightmarish. It’s also, in his own words, a screed against the movement by AI companies to supplant human artists. 

I didn’t want to make it too didactic, but no, I playfully described this book as an anti-AI screed,” he said. “This book, in particular, was driven by anger and frustration, for sure. Not every book is going to be driven that way.

Despite the emotions that fueled it, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep does not read like a screed. Instead, wielding offbeat humor and tech concepts that feel both lived-in and frighteningly tactile, the book lays out tandem narratives all building to the same conclusion, each of them exploring our relationship to machine learning in a different way. One of these narratives belongs to Julia, a former gaming streamer looking for a new challenge in life, who gets a call from a California tech company with an interesting offer.

Paul Tremblay in documentary series “First Word on Horror”

The company has, it seems, implanted some new technology in a brain-dead middle-aged man which will, in theory, allow them to pilot the man’s body through a rudimentary, still-developing system of controls. Julia, with her gaming background, would be the pilot, in her own way just as much a test subject as the human vegetable she’s controlling. 

Julia is a Gen Z streamer with an omnivorous pop culture appetite, inspired by Tremblay’s own adult children, who riffs on The Big Lebowski constantly and calls her strange new meat puppet “Bernie” in reference to Weekend at Bernie’s. Her wide frame of reference, and her interest in art and stories far beyond video games, is in part informed by Tremblay’s own experiences with Gen Z, and in part a response to AI companies who scrape art and culture as a means of consuming it for reference without really experiencing a story. 

“I know that one of the arguments that OpenAI and other tech companies are trying to make is like, ‘Hey, you writers, you artists, you take pop culture, you take your influences, and you create something. That’s just the same thing that the bots are doing.’ And it’s just not,” Tremblay said. “I wanted to have Julia have her outlook informed by all this pop culture, and I wanted to make that feel really human as a way to show how inhuman the AI is.”

The other side of the story belongs to “Bernie,” who’s addressed in his point-of-view chapters as “You.” In these chapters, the technology in Bernie’s body starts to flicker images through his seemingly dead brain, delivering half-remembered imagery and perspective in a nod to the “hallucinations” of an AI model groping for understanding it can never reach. These chapters in particular show off Tremblay’s flair for formalist shake-ups, and echo the kind of hyperstimulated writing that Dick and Ellison made so influential. 

“I think it was more just the general Philip K. Dick feeling of ‘The world is so strange,'” Tremblay said. “He’s a lot funnier, I think, than maybe a lot of people credit him. That’s definitely what I was thinking of when writing the book.

Bernie’s chapters embody the strangeness of Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep, presenting imagery that’s at times puzzling, at times eerily filmic, and always unnerving. They also mirror Julia’s own journey in fascinating ways as the odd couple – the Gen Z gamer and the middle-aged vegetable – traverse the United States, and the tech in Bernie’s body wakes up to the possibilities of using his flesh for its own purposes. It’s a compelling narrative technique, but it presented some new writing challenges for Tremblay. 

“I quickly realized I couldn’t write this book the same way I have in the past,” he said. “By that, I mean all my other novels I had written in the order in which it was presented, even things that are nonlinear, which is most of them. I knew I couldn’t do that in this book. It’s not a spoiler, but hopefully the readers figure out pretty early that the Bernie chapters are a little bit of a preview of the next chapter from Julia, what’s actually happening with Julia. It’s all refracted from him.”

Mary Roach’s Stiff

Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep began with a simple image, inspired by Tremblay’s reading of Mary Roach‘s book chronicling the history of our treatment of corpses, Stiff. As he read, Tremblay imagined a body sitting on an airplane, remote-controlled by someone else. At the time, it was a “silly what-if” concept, filed away in his head. Years later, when he became an author suing a tech company to keep AI from scraping his work for ideas, it started to feel frighteningly plausible, taking the “silly what-if” into the territory of a high-concept horror show about what happens when we try to exploit and commodify uniquely human aspects of consciousness. 

“It stuck with me,” Tremblay said of that what-if imagery. “And then a few years later, when I was a part of the case suing OpenAI on behalf of writers, that what-if suddenly didn’t seem as silly. The more I learned about how that corporation operates and without really any sort of ethical thought to anything, I was like, ‘Oh, I’m going to play with that. That’s actually happening.”

So, what if someone actually in favor of generative AI picks up Tremblay’s self-described “anti-AI screed?” He hopes that, at the very least, he’s made the ride enjoyable in a distinctly human way that might begin to reshape the conversation. 

“I think that was another reason why I wanted to have the humor,” Tremblay said. “If people are reading this book who aren’t on the side of like, ‘Hey, LLMs taking authors’ books is bad,’ maybe if they read something that’s cut with some humor, that maybe they’ll be more easily swayed.”

Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is now in bookstores everywhere. 

Dead but Dreaming of electric sheep

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