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[Interview] TIFF ’11: Writer/Director Sean Durkin Talks Cult Drama ‘Martha Marcy May Marlene’

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Perhaps the most difficult title of the year to pronounce, Martha Marcy May Marlene (review) has made its way from Sundance to Cannes, around the world at different film festivals. Fox Searchlight will release it in October, but not before playing it at the New York Film Festival.

The film stars Elizabeth Olsen as Martha, a young woman who leaves a cult led by Patrick (John Hawkes). As her sister Lucy (Sarah Paulson) and her husband Ted (Hugh Dancy) take Martha in, they can’t cope with her disturbing behavior. Writer/director Sean Durkin explained how he determined what specific social interactions Martha would get just a little bit wrong.

Martha Marcy May Marlene

It really just came from saying what the rules of the cult were and what she would be behaving like,” Durkin said in Toronto the day of his TIFF screening. “Then if she came back in, just putting her in a normal situation and thinking about it.

One behavior audiences may not notice is that Martha doesn’t know how to eat socially. “For instance, one of the first things is when she’s eating, the first breakfast scene,” Durkin continued. “If you watch her, it’s sort of subtle, but she sort of doesn’t know how to eat. She’s sort of cautious to eat, she’s kind of playing with her food. Things like that, knowing at that point that she hasn’t eaten in front of a man in a long time without some sort of issue that was created by the separation of the eating meals at the cult. So it just grew out of things like that.

Martha also goes skinny dipping and gets into bed with her sister and brother-in-law unannounced. That becomes creepy, because how do you explain to a full grown adult why that’s not okay? She should already know better.

The swimming and getting into bed with them, it was just about redefining the rules there and having them carry over so she was stuck in a place where she didn’t know what not to do. Lizzie always sort of brings in what she brings in.

As Martha flashes back to her time in the cult, audiences will pick up on where some of this learned behavior comes from. Durkin was careful never to spell it out though.

That was really important to me, to not explain it but just to show it and have it gradually come out later,” Durkin said.

He also outlined the rules of the cult in his head, even if they don’t specifically make it onto the screen. “Oh yeah, definitely. I created the whole set of values and how they would operate and all that stuff.

Durkin began the script for his first feature film by casually thinking about how he hadn’t seen a modern day cult movie before. Then he became more involved in research and developed a passion for the subject.

For me, the most disturbing thing I found was the sexual initiation thing that seemed consistent. The stuff I read about and talked to people about was way worse than anything you can put in a movie because people just wouldn’t believe it. I had to tone it down a lot from things that I heard about.

The film shows how Patrick abuses and manipulates young women. That was as far as Durkin felt comfortable exposing the real horrors of cult mentality. “Like really elaborate sexual rituals that were just so manipulative and abusive I don’t even want to say them out loud. I feel like in a film if things are too extreme, sometimes you lose your audience. It doesn’t matter if they know or not know. I just think you have to find an area, or I just wanted to find an area that’s a little more understandable.

Durkin studied the research that was available on the famous cult groups. “I started by reading all of the big groups, like the famous groups of the ’60s and ’70s. Then I found some more local groups in upstate New York and Vermont and out west in the desert. Then I started watching some documentaries and then finding people who had been some of these more local groups.

Real cult survivors became the most detailed source of research for Durkin. “My main source was three or four people, a couple of which had gone into these groups and left after a couple days because they were just passing by. That was really valuable to get an outsider’s perspective. The other thing was someone who had spent eight months in a group and escape.

One might imagine it’s hard to put out a call saying, “I’m making a film about cults, I’d like to hear your story.” Durkin’s process was much more organic. Simply by starting the screenplay, he found vital sources of inspiration.

It happens really naturally. When you’re writing, you just talk about it because that’s what you’re working on. People ended up coming to me because I would just be talking about it in general because it was what I was working on. Then someone would be like, ‘Oh, my sister, my brother or I was in a group.’ It was pretty common that people would come forward and want to share.

Martha Marcy May Marlene opens Oct. 21 in limited release.

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Interviews

Paul Tremblay on Fighting AI with Horror in New Novel ‘Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep’

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Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep Review - Paul Tremblay AI Horror

Paul Tremblay didn’t start his writing career believing he’d be battling machines over the sanctity of his job, but like so many writers of his generation, the battle found him. In the years since Large Language Models (LLMs) and neural networks started gaining traction as an advertised shortcut to creativity, Tremblay has been active in lawsuits to prevent the use of his works in training AI models, and he’s found that, with each new project, he has to consider the possibility that some LLM, somewhere, is going to latch on to what he’s creating. 

“Now I feel like I’m thinking about, ‘Man, how am I going to write things that would be really hard or impossible for an AI to replicate?’,” Tremblay told me, speaking by Zoom from his home in Massachusetts. “Maybe some of that is ego. I’m sure every writer thinks, ‘Oh, an AI could never write what I write.’ Yes, I’d be lying if I said that wasn’t part of the thought process.”

While that’s something Tremblay might consider with any new work at this point in his career, the Bram Stoker Award-winning author of A Head Full of Ghosts, The Cabin at the End of the World, and many other novels and short stories tackled it in a more direct way with his latest book. Inspired by Philip K. Dick, Harlan Ellison, and the quirky humor of the Coen Brothers, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is Tremblay’s attempt at a sci-fi-horror mash-up that’s both darkly funny and existentially nightmarish. It’s also, in his own words, a screed against the movement by AI companies to supplant human artists. 

I didn’t want to make it too didactic, but no, I playfully described this book as an anti-AI screed,” he said. “This book, in particular, was driven by anger and frustration, for sure. Not every book is going to be driven that way.

Despite the emotions that fueled it, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep does not read like a screed. Instead, wielding offbeat humor and tech concepts that feel both lived-in and frighteningly tactile, the book lays out tandem narratives all building to the same conclusion, each of them exploring our relationship to machine learning in a different way. One of these narratives belongs to Julia, a former gaming streamer looking for a new challenge in life, who gets a call from a California tech company with an interesting offer.

Paul Tremblay in documentary series “First Word on Horror”

The company has, it seems, implanted some new technology in a brain-dead middle-aged man which will, in theory, allow them to pilot the man’s body through a rudimentary, still-developing system of controls. Julia, with her gaming background, would be the pilot, in her own way just as much a test subject as the human vegetable she’s controlling. 

Julia is a Gen Z streamer with an omnivorous pop culture appetite, inspired by Tremblay’s own adult children, who riffs on The Big Lebowski constantly and calls her strange new meat puppet “Bernie” in reference to Weekend at Bernie’s. Her wide frame of reference, and her interest in art and stories far beyond video games, is in part informed by Tremblay’s own experiences with Gen Z, and in part a response to AI companies who scrape art and culture as a means of consuming it for reference without really experiencing a story. 

“I know that one of the arguments that OpenAI and other tech companies are trying to make is like, ‘Hey, you writers, you artists, you take pop culture, you take your influences, and you create something. That’s just the same thing that the bots are doing.’ And it’s just not,” Tremblay said. “I wanted to have Julia have her outlook informed by all this pop culture, and I wanted to make that feel really human as a way to show how inhuman the AI is.”

The other side of the story belongs to “Bernie,” who’s addressed in his point-of-view chapters as “You.” In these chapters, the technology in Bernie’s body starts to flicker images through his seemingly dead brain, delivering half-remembered imagery and perspective in a nod to the “hallucinations” of an AI model groping for understanding it can never reach. These chapters in particular show off Tremblay’s flair for formalist shake-ups, and echo the kind of hyperstimulated writing that Dick and Ellison made so influential. 

“I think it was more just the general Philip K. Dick feeling of ‘The world is so strange,'” Tremblay said. “He’s a lot funnier, I think, than maybe a lot of people credit him. That’s definitely what I was thinking of when writing the book.

Bernie’s chapters embody the strangeness of Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep, presenting imagery that’s at times puzzling, at times eerily filmic, and always unnerving. They also mirror Julia’s own journey in fascinating ways as the odd couple – the Gen Z gamer and the middle-aged vegetable – traverse the United States, and the tech in Bernie’s body wakes up to the possibilities of using his flesh for its own purposes. It’s a compelling narrative technique, but it presented some new writing challenges for Tremblay. 

“I quickly realized I couldn’t write this book the same way I have in the past,” he said. “By that, I mean all my other novels I had written in the order in which it was presented, even things that are nonlinear, which is most of them. I knew I couldn’t do that in this book. It’s not a spoiler, but hopefully the readers figure out pretty early that the Bernie chapters are a little bit of a preview of the next chapter from Julia, what’s actually happening with Julia. It’s all refracted from him.”

Mary Roach’s Stiff

Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep began with a simple image, inspired by Tremblay’s reading of Mary Roach‘s book chronicling the history of our treatment of corpses, Stiff. As he read, Tremblay imagined a body sitting on an airplane, remote-controlled by someone else. At the time, it was a “silly what-if” concept, filed away in his head. Years later, when he became an author suing a tech company to keep AI from scraping his work for ideas, it started to feel frighteningly plausible, taking the “silly what-if” into the territory of a high-concept horror show about what happens when we try to exploit and commodify uniquely human aspects of consciousness. 

“It stuck with me,” Tremblay said of that what-if imagery. “And then a few years later, when I was a part of the case suing OpenAI on behalf of writers, that what-if suddenly didn’t seem as silly. The more I learned about how that corporation operates and without really any sort of ethical thought to anything, I was like, ‘Oh, I’m going to play with that. That’s actually happening.”

So, what if someone actually in favor of generative AI picks up Tremblay’s self-described “anti-AI screed?” He hopes that, at the very least, he’s made the ride enjoyable in a distinctly human way that might begin to reshape the conversation. 

“I think that was another reason why I wanted to have the humor,” Tremblay said. “If people are reading this book who aren’t on the side of like, ‘Hey, LLMs taking authors’ books is bad,’ maybe if they read something that’s cut with some humor, that maybe they’ll be more easily swayed.”

Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep is now in bookstores everywhere. 

Dead but Dreaming of electric sheep

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